Fatima film music from Paolo Buonvino, Max Steiner, uncredited ‘Gregorian chants’, claimed under fair religious use. There may be skips in the audio – I’ve contacted my podcast host about this error
You might want to make an artistic response whilst you’re listening – mine is further down
Welcome to Between The Stools on 25th October 2026. We combine and continue our recent themes – perhaps to spell them out now spoils my conclusions. Today we are going to Portugal and to an anniversary this month of something extraordinary, which has kept people coming back for 109 years.
Before I talk about why, I would like to open in prayer.
I’m aware that community chats were once quite regular. I have not forgotten what’s going on in the world, nor lost the courage to speak out about it. I am aware that speaking away from the accepted norm is made difficult, and that is something which I want to pray against. In the last month, I have learned about some brave people and what has happened to them for speaking out, and I’d like to pray for them – for Reiner, for Roger, for Michael, for Esther; it is soon the anniversary of the killing of her husband and 8 others (10th Nov); I’ll be remembering them at remembrance time. I pray for healing, justice and being called to account, for restitution, freedom, and for their causes to be furthered. I give a moment for us to add names of those we know who have fought for justice. And another for anyone else on our hearts…for our prayers for ourselves…and then for tonight…
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On May 13th 1917, Fatima in Portugal received an extraordinary visitation. Three children met with ‘a beautiful woman’ who seemed to magically appear and disappear. She said she would return, same time, same place, each month, culminating in October, when she would perform a miracle. The children shared their sightings and crowds began to gather in anticipation. They believed that the Blessed Virgin was appearing – although only the children could see her, and one of them couldn’t hear her. The children relayed to the adults what invisible St Mary was saying. She made 3 predictions, one of which is still a secret, guarded by the Vatican. She told them to do certain things. The authorities got involved, and one month, the children were not able to make their date with Mary, because they were in captivity (she came back later). At her last appearance, 70,000 were present, including sceptics, and it was recorded on film. The promised miracle took place.
Now that rural site in the parish of Fatima – the Cova da Iria – has a great church complex on it, and it is a special place of pilgrimage for Catholics, although perhaps it isn’t so well known for those outside of that faith. I only discovered it in recent years through a friend with personal connections. In 2020, a film, Fatima, came out starring Harvey Keitel. He plays a journalist interviewing the sole survivor of the three kids – the others perished of Spanish flu soon after the events. This one became a nun and lived to the age of 97.
I watched this film and others (such as arty The 13th Day of 2009, by the same producer, children’s cartoons, and the 1952 The Miracle of Our Lady of Fatima, which is like Catholic Mary Poppins), as well as read widely, to understand how the events of Fatima are seen. (One source was 250 page ‘Critical Documentation of Fatima’ from the Sanctuary of Fatima, 2013). My initial reaction was swift, and is borne out by others, although I came to it on my own and do not entirely agree with those others.
The sources fall into three camps, each evangelising with a doctrine of their own.
I am aware that some listening/reading may hold these events dear, and that you hold Mary dear. I too hold Mary dear. I won’t claim a direct message from her – do use your own discernment and make your own direct enquiries (I mean, above).
It has been a journey of changing opinion; forgive if I’ve not fully arrived and seem inconsistent.
These are my thoughts, from watching the 2020 film and further conservative Catholic sources:
In the middle of the first world war, recently revolutionised Portugal was at a key crossroads, with the church undermined by a new secular government which outlawed miracles, closed churches and monasteries, and gave priests a police number. This republic that had also overthrown its monarchy intended to wipe out religion within 2 generations. Hence the 6 visitations on the 13th of the month were useful for the church, and took courage to talk about.
I immediately felt that the portrayed behaviour of the BVM is odd:
When the children asked of this radiant woman in white, ‘where do you come from?’, she said, ‘from above’, pointing up. This is vague, although it may be truthful. Although there is not a biblical account of Mary’s miraculous appearance, we can turn to God and angels doing so: to Mary, Joseph, Moses, Zechariah, Abraham and Sarah, John… Their first words are often ‘do not be afraid’. This woman said this, and told the children that she would not hurt them. That part might be reassuringly genuine. The next thing I would expect of a real heavenly visitor is missing.
God and angels identify themselves. They use the names of those they appear to. Compare this with last month and the appearance of ‘Yahweh’ to Ezekiel. I stated it was odd that ‘God’ kept calling Ezekiel ‘son of man’ or even ‘mortal man’ and did not use Ezekiel’s name. The children’s names were Lucia, Francisco, and Jacinta. The latter two were siblings, and cousins to the first, who became a nun. They were born in 1907, 1908 and 1910 respectively. I think that Mary would identify herself as such, perhaps calling herself Mother, or Jesus’ Mother on Earth. I do not think that she would use the titles given to her, such as Blessed or Queen of Heaven or Divine. But she would give her name, and not say something so vague. Only at the end did she call herself ‘the lady of the rosary’ – still not naming herself, as if almost she didn’t know the name of the person she was assumed to be, or even impersonating. Or was that supplied for her?
In the 2020 film, I didn’t like the energy of Mary. I have not had the privilege of meeting Jesus’ mother, but I feel that there would be great love, calm and peace around her. When I have read channellings from her, I sense these things, even from the written words of another. I also get the impression that those who seek her at holy sites find these qualities. Although this is allegedly how the children of 1917 felt, this Mary felt off. She had a bossiness and an edge to her. She told the children that they needed to suffer. She told them sharply that they needed to pray, or that an even worse war would befall them. I have heard Catholics say: we didn’t pray, so we got the war. But God doesn’t punish for lack of faith and prayer. What kind of a God would unleash a horrific war on multiple countries for not doing his will? What kind of Mother would do so?
I was suspicious that Mary appeared to only 3 people, and only was audible to just 2 of them. Francisco could see but couldn’t hear; he was told that his lack of rosary use precluded him from being able to hear Mary’s words. But I don’t think that Mary would turn off the sound to him because this boy didn’t follow Catholic custom.
At the last showing, a city’s worth of people gathered in fields – which are ruined, during lean times – to listen to 3 kids tell them what an invisible, silent vision is telling them. Why didn’t this woman make herself apparent to all?
They were made to wait, even kneel for long periods in unpleasant weather – Mary (nor the Lord) would ask that of us. But Lucia ordered the crowd to close their umbrellas for the presence of Mary, even though it yet rained heavily.
Mary turns on her bleeding heart for the children – a gross scene – which felt like frightening manipulation. ‘This is how you’re making me suffer!’ I note that Mary is given her Son’s attributes of this ‘immaculate’, thorn-encircled heart, although it was he who wore a crown of thorns on the cross.
She also gave them an image of hell, the first of the alleged revelations. The Catholic version says this was to frighten into conversion. Others wonder, as I do, if this wasn’t a depiction of war.
She told the children to suffer for sinners, to pray the rosary (which were on sale for rising costs at the site). I was appalled at the self harm the kids did to this end, and that Mary said: daytime only, not, Stop this completely! How does suffering save, really? How could these children save through suffering? Doesn’t that also make them too like Jesus, whose divine saving work is considered unique?
I wasn’t sure about her line: ‘do not insult my Son, he has been insulted enough’. The tone especially felt wrong for Mary. It is found in other tellings, not just the most recent movie, although the message feels more apt for the socialist, communist, anticlerical leaders at that time.
When asked to heal, Mary said that she would do only those that had sins forgiven. Jesus forgave sins as part of healing, but he didn’t insist on repentance first. Mary was picky about recipients.
Would Mary really stipulate building a shrine to her, and how her statue should be dressed? She’d done so earlier, for instance at England’s Walsingham in 1061, but is Jesus’ mother really so vain? This sounds like the behaviour of a lesser god, like Xena’s Aphrodite, not the True One.
And then, there is this month’s so-called miracle – ‘the Miracle of the Sun’. We might daily see the sun’s unfailing rising as a miracle, providing our planet with essential means for its and our life. But this day, the 13th October – around the time that I’m writing this – the sun did something different. In the 2020 film, despite our modern technology, the miracle wasn’t clear or impressive. It was far better in earlier ones. When Mary takes off in the Harvey Keitel film, we just see a drone’s eye view of the field – never her actual ascension. The light in the sky bobs a bit – but the camera’s on the crowd, including the unbelieving secular leaders – as much as our nearest star. Other depictions show changing colours and movement, and that the crowd could look at the sun, which had emerged from heavy rainclouds to make a dramatic show.

Here’s the picture I made today of the Miracle of The Sun whilst listening to this
Cynics say that if the sun had bobbed about like that, that life on Earth and elsewhere would have been affected, and that it would have been recorded throughout the world. It was observed for some miles, and not just by Catholics. Perhaps this was a localised show, something very bright in the sky pretending to be the sun, obscuring the sun, or assumed to be the sun – for what other ball of light is there in the heavens? Or something which could manipulate the local view of the sun: just as we can use computer graphics, might whoever had appeared have had means to do so to the perception of those gathered in Fatima that day?
I initially did not think that the being talking to those children in 1917 was Mary. Not because I don’t believe that God and his team can or do appear to us on Earth; not because I don’t esteem Mary – I do – but because her behaviour here is not consistent with the divine.
Here is my final proof: that Mary’s last act, the finale of her show, was to dive bomb the crowd, terrifying them and scattering them – was the sun going to annihilate them? The orb hurtled toward them, then rose again. No way was this behaviour of the God Bearer – more an irresponsible boy racer’s stunt, a tyrant’s spectacle to say, ‘follow me, look how powerful I am!’ This seems like a dark magician, an imposter, an aerobatic display gone wrong.
There is also how the church used these emanations: at first disbelieving, then interrogating children as these peasant kids seemed to have something which they didn’t. (Note that the worst interrogation, the incarceration and death threat was by the evil criminal secular leader, Santos – may God be dealing with him!)
Why didn’t Mary choose church officials to speak with? That is one thing that I do think is right about this: it’s God’s style to not go to palaces and presbyteries for his revelations. Jesus told us to become like little children, and them to come to him. Wouldn’t his Mother also choose children, and once again, shepherds?
Visions are inconvenient for the church, for they involve direct relationship with the divine without the mediation of priests. I realise that the chosen few were minors, three* of whom females – none of which are esteemed by the RC. That has a mark of authenticity about it.
Then the church seemed to commandeer the story – it began revival in the face of its persecution; it was an earner for them, a new complex could be built and the gifts of many received. They also seemed to use control via the undisclosed secret, known only to them, that Mary was supposed to have whispered to the kids.
It is very telling that two, Francisco and Jacinta Marto, died within 3 years. This was foretold by this lady – also something I don’t think that Mary would do. The Martos were sainted at the centenary. The oldest girl, Lucia dos Santos, seemed to be the mastermind, entering a Carmelite nunnery which made her less accessible to the world, and being the keeper of secret knowledge, living into the next century (until 2005). Interestingly, the child with longevity, the spokeswoman, isn’t yet canonised, although Lucia’s acquiring titles on the way – ‘servant of God’ (2008) and ‘venerable’ (2023). Is the church uncertain about something about her? I am.
*There was a 4th child, Carolina, who saw a vision on a different July date, and who isn’t as well known. I’m wondering why?
I do not believe that the final secret was the assassination attempt of Pope John Paul II, which was allegedly ‘disclosed’ in 2000 – which I take to mean, let’s stop you guessing. What has already taken place (in 1981, yes on 13th May!) that would seem terrible to Catholics? It was ‘interpreted’, although I note that verb and that it was not the claim that this is definitely what was said. There was a description of Lucia’s vision released, which sounds vague to me, and like a scene from the Book of Revelation. I note that John Paul claimed that Our Lady of Fatima saved him, whilst other Catholics castigate the pope for not obeying her and revealing the revelation by 1960, as stipulated. [My source seemed to conflate John Paul II, pope from 1978, and John XXIII – apologies for the error in the recording]
There is another predictable prediction from another camp about the disclosure. Yes, that sort….
It took until 1930 for the church to decide that the Fatima events were real and now to be celebrated.
I note that all along, its official channels were involved, curating the message and then taking it for themselves, as they had done 61 years earlier with another Marian appearance.
The Catholic Company website (high ranking on search results, but run by a couple of Americans) compares the Fatima apparition with the similar one of Sept 1846 in the French Alps at LaSallette. Again, they posit this against political events – coming after the French Revolution of the 1790s (which was half a century ago, and not relevant, I don’t think). Again, there are shepherd children. ‘Mary’ greets them: ‘Come near, my children, be not afraid; I am here to tell you great news’. She again never identified herself, but she is again called beautiful; the BVM is assumed, or believed.
But how she goes on also alarms me: fear mongering, guilt tripping about how she has suffered – yes, how has Mary suffered? It sounds as if it were she on the cross, not Jesus. She says that prayers and deeds will never pay back what she has done for them – isn’t that familiar, cross-Christian theology: your debt to me is unpayable, but you must continue to suffer for it anyway.
She speaks of ‘the heavy arm of her Son’, which she will be forced to let go of, and her resting on the seventh day, sounding like Creator God. She gives each child a secret. She says that France will become secular (it has), and later that a northern European country, now Protestant, will convert. That implies that nonCatholics aren’t Christian. I note that England was about to enact the Dowry of Mary in a national special Sunday when the pandemic struck. It was almost exactly century after the one that killed Jacinta and Francisco. At this time, the latest film was released in theatres.
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In both these European emanations, Mary has become a Nostradamus, John in Patmos, giving us enigmatic timebound prophecies about the church, ‘holy father’ – would she call the pope that? – and speaks of divine wrath. It’s just what the church of the middle ages would have loved – is this return to its playbook after the godless ‘enlightenment’ years? Mary went on: if they don’t convert, monsters and enslavement will ensue. They must stop blaspheming and working on a Sunday.
The Catholic Company website account ends its chilling words – several are omitted here, as I don’t want to be part of its fearmongering – with telling ones:
‘It will be then that the Antichrist will be born of a Sister, but woe to her! Many will believe in him, because he will claim to have come from heaven, woe to those who will believe in him!’
Something for the hearers of these tales to consider, about the tales.
What I think happened
Firstly, I think there are different layers and that the Catholic church used these events for their own agenda at a time that it was vulnerable. It also used them at a time that the people were vulnerable, suffering food shortage, during a war and a regime change. It is horrific to pretend that the second war was threatened by Mary and connected to sin and faith. The hell visions, the long prayers in uncomfy circs, the bleeding heart, are all powerful tools but not from a good or true source. They are about coercion. The sun appearing from dark clouds is manipulative theatrics.
My original thought – and you may have guessed this, given my mentions since summer Solstice (yes a Sun-day) is that this being was not Mary, but an extra terrestrial. This is a broad statement, since any being not of this world could be termed as such: as Mary is in Heaven, you could say that she too is an ET. But I mean: not part of the Holy Family.
This is another camp’s view: that the Miracle of the Sun was a mass alien sighting. I saw a video with Erich’s face (he from last month), and thought – I can guess what you’ll say. He is far from alone in saying it (ie it’s not his original thought). They talk of silver discs in the sky that covered the sun, and tell us that the kids’ original description of the lady was of someone short, bald and childlike in a quilted shawl holding a glowing orb – looking more Martian than Marian. They think that microradiation was present, that the alien entered the children’s minds, that the scorch marks on clothing after the Miracle of the Sun (when the ground was also swiftly dried after being drenched) is further signs of UFOs, or UAP as they now redress them to be taken more seriously.
NonCatholic researchers claim to be historic and scientific and rather predictably suggest mass hysteria, known heavenly phenomena, and throw in psychology. I am annoyed by all this patter which could be summarised in a line, not needing an entire documentary, let alone book (I feel too irritated to name the authors). They’re just like they say of the Vatican, interpreting everything to fit their doctrine, but sounding rather patronising of these simple folk who only had angels and saints as ‘archetypes’ to frame their experience through. These authors thus posit themselves as superior to the people of a century ago and also to the believers today, threatening that secular stick back over the religious realm.
I am not entirely with the notion this lady was an alien, and I wonder what the ET’s intent was. Was it true that the Woman In White (not Wilkie Collins’) did mean well towards the children, although she lied or was ignorant when she told them that she wouldn’t hurt them. Was she heaven-sent in some form to warn us, to stop an ugly secular government – were other kinds of faith affected, other than Catholics? – and was the dramatic dive bomb an apocalyptic alert? Or did something go wrong with the miracle machine? Did they try to stop the second world war?
Could the lady be from the future?
Or was she a being from another realm impersonating Mary, perhaps an ‘unclean spirit’. The few evangelical mentions of Fatima I found, and a Muslim writer, suggested that she was demonic. I too had thought this initially: was she from above, or below?
Or could it be that Mary did come, and her story was distorted? Have we not yet heard her real message? Flashes of it – about peace and prayer – do sound like her.
How can we discern what really was said, or what God wanted from this?
How can we not be fooled by spirits, or aliens? Or earthly interpreters?
Let’s pause and I will tell you what else I discovered and thought.
The Catholic sources I first went to didn’t mention that there had been three earlier visits to the same children the year before, this time from a male angel, who sapped their energy (in contrast to the lady). He called himself ‘angel of peace’ and asked the children to pray with him. I didn’t think much of the prayers. [I omitted this in the recording]
The 2020 film’s official webpage has endorsements from American bishops; its makers include several Catholics, including one who set up a young people’s Catholic writing programme; it was funded by founders of cancer treatment. Hence, I wonder if we yet have a film that isn’t from a Catholic perspective (1952 and 2009 were). I noted the views of writers and video makers, and am concerned that they seem pleased by a hellfire and suffering-based message, even to children!
I can see that the Fatima story was useful in the return of a religious government, and has been the poster of conservative Catholics, although they disliked the lady’s immodest dress (lengthened for films and statues). I can see that the post revolution regime must have been a dark and terrifying time for Portugal. However, the next government was also a dictatorship, just a Catholic one this time, ending in 1974.
I am also interested to note that Russia is often mentioned in the Fatima story, and that the lady spoke of its reconversion, on the cusp of its similar revolution when it too ended the monarchy and brought in atheistic communism. The Lady called Russia ‘the motherland’ in the source below.
I found one other perspective – a New Age channelled version of the Alien Theory. Several sites of that ilk I tried were silent on what happened; and the same one called the Miracle a holographic deception, stated that the real 3rd secret was the end of the Catholic church, and then a two part channelling via a team who work with crystal skulls. The channel was stated to be a modern living person who accessed her previous life as Lucia during a session. [Source deliberately omitted].
I note how much that Lucia – the girl who did grow up, and became a nun – is the protagonist of this story. She is either the truly blessed one, or some see her as controlling. Films focus on her. Some sources questioned whether she was justly so, but this 2019 channelling (ie close to the last film’s release) posits Lucia as the rightful mystic of the tale. It claims that Lucia met with ladies plural on numerous occasions prior to May 1917, alone, and that her cousins got in the way and spoiled things. They copied their description of the lady from a local Marian statue, saying she was 3½ feet high, but this Mary was tall – Lucia could only hug her legs. Mary appeared in a different outfit each time, culminating in a cooler, more glorious appearance on Miracle day. Mary’s message fitted the modern woman and New Age: women were to be embodied, sensual, powerful, self directing, warriors. But only those who were open heard this message, says Lucia.
Mary spoke of Jesus – here called Yeshua (New Agers/Neopagans use his Hebrew/ Aramaic name) as her ‘friend’. If one believes in different lifetimes and that we incarnate with souls in different earthly relationships, this isn’t so surprising – perhaps it was just in the 1st century that Mary and Jesus came to Earth as mother and son. This channel denies that any Mary spoke of the rosary – that was added by the church (that does fit for me). She said things that interested me, but it lost credence for me with her ending: that the Miracle of The Sun was the Spaceship New Jerusalem, piloted by Yeshua, the next home of the Christed ones! I have always firmly believed that God makes Heaven a new world, at least as beautiful as this one, and that we would not be confined for eternity in a ship in the ether. It sounds like the space-obsessed modern businessmen we’re encouraged to mock. I generally had concern over the construct of Lucia as chosen and superior.
The parts I found interesting of this channelling from the crystal skulls team were:
That a senior churchman had been observed by Lucia as bringing fair haired children to a secret chamber below the church. She was worried about them and asked Mary to free them. Mary also said that due to this that Fatima was filled with fear and darkness. Now this makes some sense of why Mary appeared there – to rescue these imported children and to clear this sinister energy connected with the ringed priest in red (bishop, cardinal, or precentor?). One may thus view the suppressed Catholic church differently.
I can believe that there are energetic reasons – for I believe that places hold energy – why Fatima was chosen for these visitations, and can see that if the ‘bishop’ was abusing children that this may not be spoken of in mainstream Catholic narrative. [Fatima seems not to have had a bishop at the time, but one may have still used the location for his crimes]
It was May 13th when Yeshua also appeared and sent power out of his hands, sending golden light to the town and ‘handled’ the captive children situation. (Lucia also assisted clear her town).
Whereas Lucia welcomed these visitors with joy, her cousins fled in fear, and didn’t really hear.
Jacinta’s rib was removed at the church and doctor’s behest; she died the next day.
‘Mary’ of Miracle day had a cooler energy than before, and that makes me wonder who showed up.
The ‘angel hair’ was a shower of raising vibrations, say the skulls team; the sounds were healing.
The 3rd secret was the return of Mary et al in their space vehicles. This Lucia channel said that she was forced to reveal the revelation to her bishop at what she thought was the end of her life. The description she gave wasn’t the real revelation. She was detained and her message distorted by the church.
Others have suggested that there are two Lucias, showing photos of her that don’t match and noting the changes in her tone and story. Some posit that there was a swap or even murder of the original seer of Fatima. Her last public interview was in the late 50s, just prior to the time that disclosure was supposed to happen. She lived almost another 50 years in seclusion and under Catholic control. (The 2020 movie has a journalist visit her in 1987 – thirty years after that last public interview). I believe that Lucia wasn’t free to speak in her later years and was coerced, and the 2013 ‘critical document’ claims that she destroyed previous statements, and altered them.
‘Lucia’ means light, and it’s claimed this soul is a big part in bringing it
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I would like to draw things together:
I realise that Fatima is a place of joy, healing and coming close to God
I see the changing seemingly unchangeable regimes: from Catholic and monarchy to republic and back, and that too passed. May we take encouragement from knowing that swift ends can come.
I see that each interested party usurps the events of Fatima for its own purposes
but God does intervene and still does miracles – can we expect Her again?
Let us end in prayer, and for God to reveal the truth of Fatima to us
See you on 29th Nov (and also the last Sunday of the year), 8pm GMT, for ‘Becoming Human’.
Please reach out to me, Elspeth, on betweenthestools@hotmail.co.uk
Thank you, blessings, love and good night
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After thoughts to consider:
The numerology of the dates the seers died: (F) 4.4.19, (J) 20.2.20, (L) 13.2.2005
The numerological significance of the 13th day, and the Catholic significance of October
The significance of the Lady choosing an [holm] oak tree to appear in
That the Lady appeared at a town named for another Lady of Heaven – the daughter of Mohammed, who is also seen as a beacon of hope; the town is named for a Moorish princess who converted to Christianity
The more I read, the more I’m convinced that the Secret has not been revealed, and I wonder if it is connected to the corruption and abuse in the Catholic church. May there be justice and healing
Cf Neale Donald Walsch who also received repeat divine communications
I am certain that the message of Fatima as depicted by Catholics is not good news, nor from a good god – offense, fear, punishment, self harm are not mature or right understandings of God
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